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 Kettlebells?

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PostSubject: Kettlebells?   Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:33 pm

OK I've decided to invest in a few kettlebells for my birthday (in a few weeks), but I'm uncertain which sizes to get? If you've had any experience with KB's I'd value your input. I thought maybe 3 or 4 KB's going from 11-12Kg (to learn the moves with) then maybe something like a 16, 20 & 25Kg or so? I'm not sure....
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:06 am

I've ordered a 12Kg KB. I pondered getting a 16Kg, but decided as I've got to learn to GENTLY land the bell on the forearm a 12Kg might be a better starting place, then once I have the form sorted, then go up in weight. I think a 12Kg will end up as too light for most things, but I do intend to get 4 or so if I like them, so I should be able to get a wide enough range to give them a good go & see if I'd like to use them on myself & others.
I'm still 'in the dark' about whether KB's are harder or easier than DB's. I suppose we'll see?
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:10 am

Ordered my 12Kg, but it seems to have cocked-up a bit & it's got lost, not sure how long it'll take to sort out, so I decided to order a 16Kg while that gets sorted out. I was going to get a 16Kg for sure (& probably 2 heavier one's if I enjoyed it & form was good enough to warrant going up). I also ordered a new 10Kg med ball, because I'd outgrown the lighter ball I had (imagine a sandbag, a KB or 2 & a 10Kg med ball in the park early one sunny morning Twisted Evil those would make an ace little session I reckon)
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:43 am

So far I have got the 16Kg kettlebell & the 10Kg med ball. I reckon the 16 is a little light for swings once I get the form sorted out, I have tried a couple of cleans, but I think I'll hold off & sort them out with the 12Kg as I'm really not sure I've got the landing softly on the forearm & my form sucks enough to warrant starting ultra-light & working up as the form slides into place.

In terms of preparation I watched a few DVD's & plan to watch a couple more tonight.
Some Pavel (of course)
Steve Cotter (someone reminded me of him the other day, so I'll add some of those to my viewing later tonight)
Stan Pike (didn't rate him much, he runs the UKKA, he isn't as well versed in lifting with a KB as say Dan John or Pavel I don't reckon & contradicted them in a couple of areas where I believed they were right)
Dan John KB (already watched it a few weeks ago, but will give it another go later just to refresh my mind now I've actually tried a KB)
Anthony DiLuglio has a series of 3 DVD called the art of strength, a beginners, intermediate & advanced that you are supposed to go along with. I can't see myself doing a routine along with a DVD (I can however see myself smashing a screen while mucking about in front of it with a kettlebell mind you! Basketball ), so I'm not sure how I rate that - I've only watched the beginners as I terms of KB's that's what I am - maybe I'll give it a go with an old laptop I've got & see how I manage later in the week, we'll see. Today & probably tomorrow are going to be official 'play days' & next week will be a definite sub-max week while I play about learning a bit of form & tricks I need. If it gets a little bit warmer I may even toddle into the back garden or park & give some of those fancy flips & juggling type type stuff a go...who knows?

Anyway that's the kettlebell update for now...

Oh yea one final point - I've had 3 ladies pop round today who I've trained in the past & all of them seemed really interested in the kettlebell & expressed an interest in learning to use them (in their cases smaller than the 16Kg would be needed), I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or women seem more interested in KB's than DB's or BB's? I had a look on ebay & there are really cheap little bells (4 & 8Kg sizes), so I will get one of each so I give them a few sessions on the proviso they know I'm not a KB instructor, but can probably get them moving using reasonable form (& it'll give me some idea if I want to get educated as a KB instructor, so we'll all benefit!). Assuming I enjoy the experience (which I think is fairly likely), then I might well consider some form of formal training over the summer? Have to see about funds as I'll be travelling a bit in 2010 & funds might well be a little tight?
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:33 am

Despite having the cold from hell I have managed to have a few muck abouts with the new Kettlebells. I've yet to try a Turkish get up - I'll be using the Gray Cook/Brett Jones version as shown the DVD set "Kettlebells from the ground up" (that's 2 DVD's purely about the Turkish get up), but I have tried a swing, clean & snatch. For both the clean & the snatch I decided it made more sense to start from the top, so with the clean (for example) I used 2 hands to cheat curl the bell up into the rack position ('rack position' is simply the term they use to describe the cleaned bell with the bell being up by the shoulder), from there I simply lowered to a hang at arms length. After doing that a few times it was quite easy to reverse the move using a slight back swing to generate the power to raise the bell. I used a similar method to sort out the snatch.
I've no where near mastered these lifts, that'll take some time, but I've got my head around the first basics I need to do them (which is ok considering the illness). I wont be trying anything like those fancy flips & stuff until I get a chance to do a bit of work outside (I'm not flipping KB's indoors!).
What do I think of KB's so far? Well they're different to a dumbbell, certainly not a replacement, given the choice I'd choose DB's over KB's any day, but as an added tool I can see a few uses as the unusual way it hangs & swivels round the hand creates unique learning patterns not found using DB's or BB's (rather like things like sandbags, thick bars or other different tools create different feels to familiar exercises.
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:52 am

Quick update:

I've been splitting my training into several short sessions per day as an experiment. Starting with the 12K bell, then moving onto the 16 K bell.

An example session (this morning) looked like:

Push-ups 34 reps - I'm doing high, med, low intensity each day I vary , high is around the 80-90% (I stop when form goes a little, but I could still force a few extra reps), med is approx 75% of that & low is 50% of that, next time I can usually get a couple more on the high day, so I adjust everything up accordingly. I think the 'secret' to a good looking push-up is tight glutes, you should be able to crack walnuts inbetween those cheeks during the set Very Happy if you've got tight gluts & tight abs you're 90% sure you've got a good looking push-up I reckon, you'll also be working on a great planking position if you do that as well.

12K x 10 reps (each arm)
one arm swings
one arm cleans
one arm snatches

16K for 5 reps (each arm)

one arm swings
one arm cleans
one arm snatches

Bottom up cleans 16K x 5 (pretty hard)

Bottom up12K clean & press x 5 (easy enough)

There seems to be 2 method to clean & snatch things, one is the 'swing method' where you swing it in a big arc out in front, then pull it in to clean or snatch. The other method (I'm not sure of a good term for it), but it would be a pull straight up (more like a barbell pathway for cleaning/snatching) close to the body. Strangely enough although I've had load more practice doing DB swings & was quite reasonable at both the US swing (to parallel with the floor) & the old English style swing (to above the head & caught - so it looks like the top of a DB press) I actually appear to be better at the style that keeps it close to the body (the more like a barbell pulling pattern). I'd have put money on it being the other way around?
I do think I'll be needing a 20K pretty soon. I'm still indoors right now, so still being cautious about dropping bells etc, but once spring appears I'll be outside trying my hand at pressing the 16K bottom up (bottom up lifts are very hard on the grip, you need chalk).
Although I'm still taking little rests I'm working towards getting it all done with no rest. This experience has convinced me that although I can run 5 miles without any problems & sprint at a reasonable trot. I now believe upper & lower body cardiovascular fitness may be things you have to train separately to get reasonable at both, or maybe there is a greater difference between strength/endurance & endurance than I expected (or maybe a little bit of both?).

Variations I will bring in are doing different push-ups like one hand on med ball & do plyo or non-plyo arm swaps (so one rep the left hand would be on the ball then next rep the right), other push-up variations. Pulling I've been quite enjoying doing inverted rows with my xtreme rings (like adjustable gymnastic rings), chin & pull-up variations. I've been trying to do some pulling & or pushing variation every session outside of the bells. The KB's obviously have both a pulling & pushing component in the lifts themselves, but I like to add a bit of other stuff as to be honest I've been failing due to being winded, not a strength issue.

I think that's about it, it has been quite interesting so far I've found that this has been fairly challenging even using the light weights (which is good). As a side note I had a neck issue on & off for a while now. It's not been debilitating, just annoying on occasions - the KB's seem to help..well so far. I'll keep my eye on things & let you know how that develops.
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:24 am

I've just ordered a 20Kg bell (at least I'm starting to approach a reasonable weight on these). A guy I know online has done a couple of UK cert courses & has pointed me out a couple he thinks are ok, so I might consider doing them during the warmer months.
Trouble is with these you need to buy a new one every now & again which makes them a bit expensive! I've been gripping 2 bells at once for swings, but haven't been able to clean or snatch 2 bells in one hand - again I'm indoors, so no dropping allowed! The snow is returning & temps are down again - I was hoping spring was approaching! I've swung 28Kg which was kind of hard using 2 bells (the 16 & 12 gripped in one hand). I've also started doing 2 hand swings, cleans & snatches using different sized bells - so I'll clean the 12 in the left & 16 in the right for some reps, then swap over hands & do the same again (for example).
As soon as the new one arrives I'll be working on getting a 32Kg one hand swing (with the 20 & the 12 in one hand), a two hand swing, clean & snatch with a 16 & a 20 (one bell in each hand), bottom up 20Kg snatch & also a bottom up clean & press with the 20 as I've got the 16 Kg for reps (but that is only just so 20 might take a month or so).
I'll also start work on the Turkish get up (as a side note cook & Jones do a fantastic 2 DVD set just about the Turkish get-up - check it out here), probably with a lighter weight (the 12K I would imagine).
All in all I'm improving steadily on these with form getting better every few days it seems like, but still a long way to go before I feel anywhere near competent!
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:10 pm

I don't think I'll try kettlebells--I already own too much hardware, and don't think I want to learn a whole new system. But I was curious enough to look up Mike Mahler's site http://www.mikemahler.com/kettlebell_exercises.html to get a better idea of how kettlebells can be used.
It looks like proper training and good form are essential... just as with free weights and machines.
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:17 pm

It tends to be more ballistic in a lot of moves & very 'hip driven'. The swing, snatch & clean are all pretty much hip powered. Things like Turkish get-up & pretty technical (Grey Cook & Brett Jones brought out a 2 DVD set just about the Turkish get-up!). pressing is similar, but you start lower & kind of corkscrew up (sort of). Probably the best description is it's more power based in the fast moves, more like Olympic weightlifting assistance exercise than say your typical weight training would be. I've only been at it a few months - I did actually want to learn a whole new training system, so that was ok. I'm a L-O-N-G way off of being proficient at it quite yet. Another consideration is cost. I went up pretty fast & have ended up with quite a few bells (in 4 Kg jumps up to 32Kg so far) & it soon mounts up in terms of cost & room you need to store them, so you need to consider that. On the up side, they are quick to use (just grab & go) & you can use them outside (if it ever gets nice weather again?).
Yea, good form is a must really I'd certainly suggest anyone going it go check out Enter the kettlebell (just ignore the fake Russian "Comrades" etc) it has some good information on the disc & the book you can also get.
I haven't been able to use them this week. I actually hurt my coccyx (not related to training) so I'm resting that area up for a week
(yes this week I am my own pain in the arse Laughing )
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:32 pm

A lot of words here, please no one feel like you need to promptly respond to this but it's basically all about what has been written in the above posts.

First, I understand about all of what Pete is talking about and surely, he can do these far better than I can.

I've read the DD forum before. And a few others in the English language too.

For a light moment, of all the exercises there are in the world, a Dragon Walk with a Kettlebell certainly is one of the most unusual names for an exercise I've ever heard. Yes, it exists but it's not that well known, sounds impressive though I don't know what it is myself.

Anyway, I've bunched up kettlebells before, I know exactly what you mean as far as gripping them, combining 2 KBs. I'll soon update my personal info and perhaps can get a photo up of some kind, but I"m sure you are much much stronger than me but it certainly sounds like you are going through a lot of Kettlebells in a short time and with quite a lot of enthusiasm, it makes me feel like going out to a park and swinging one around indeed as you say because the elementary swings, the center arc from between the legs and up is okay but there is a lot of freelancing that is possible too and the Turkish get up, I know that one too if I'm correct, laying on the floor and so on, up with the KB.

I had the opportunity to use a dragon door KB, very nice, they certainly are deluxe models I saw at a club once. But for practical purposes, is it that important to get one of theirs? It does have a good grip, I have some basic Fit (company name) ones and since I haven't delved head first into it, they suffice. I've also seen some at clubs which indeed are "cheapies", some maybe even concrete cast but again, one looks at whether it's practical for the purposes.

But I'll say again, sounds like you are getting a real collection of them in a short amount of time. Maybe that's best but I don't think there is a real need to rush it unless like I said, you really have a lot of strength going up and the ones you have don't suit you and/or you read with envy some of the guys out there who talk about how much they are lifting, some are quite high numbers which I can definitely identify with and in fact, that you have designs to incorporate KB instruction into your practise. But reading about how much others are snatching or how many swings is like keeping up with the Joneses too and sounds like you are still early in your development. A KB is still a KB and a lot of it is also how many swings one makes imho, you surely know more on that. Yes, they are fun and I just read tonight in that Smoke and Mirrors book how one of these guys, Weider dropped a barbell in their family's house and crashed the floor. For some reason, it seems KBs have a whole lot more potential to do that than BBs or about anything. That's the velocity element.

----------------------

And on the subject of Kettlebell instructing, well, this is not really my home where I am but from what I understand, where I am Minnesota currently, is the home of Pavel, Dragon Door and all that. Kettlebell instructors certainly should be licensed but I wonder at the same time, if a lot of students are actually doing it themselves. I've seen the videos of classes from in fact, Minnesota and those people out in the field and it is very tantalizing and I was reading some KB instructors blog from up here once. Maybe KB instruction is a field fertile for teachers in the matter as your female students interest seems to indicate. I know I'd like to take classes in it but at the moment, it isn't convenient.

-------------------

Quote :
Push-ups 34 reps - I'm doing high, med, low intensity each day I vary , high is around the 80-90% (I stop when form goes a little, but I could still force a few extra reps), med is approx 75% of that & low is 50% of that, next time I can usually get a couple more on the high day, so I adjust everything up accordingly. I think the 'secret' to a good looking push-up is tight glutes, you should be able to crack walnuts inbetween those cheeks during the set Very Happy if you've got tight gluts & tight abs you're 90% sure you've got a good looking push-up I reckon, you'll also be working on a great planking position if you do that as well.

I wasn't looking for advise on pushups but actually, this is information I can use, tight glutes?? Yeh, a real nugget of wisdom there not to flatter, how about that, on a forum I just found today. I can probably add on 5 or 10 extra with that technique. Makes sense, something a PT might tell you but I'd never know it by myself. I don't know if anyone has ever said that. Pushups on a ball, bosa or whatever though Like I read here somewhere tonight is pretty tough, but it's in the abs someone said as well. Maybe I'll try that again too.
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:54 am

Long posts are fine on the board - it's a discussion board after all so we expect some discussion Laughing
My training has had to be put on 'stand by' for now. I'm doing some running & fitting in the odd session when I can, but being in my last few months of (hopefully) becoming a clinical nutritionist I have to sit at a computer & type every waking hour Sleep (after I've finished it'll be a couple of months with weights as top priority to make up for the lack)...but anyway back to the questions -

I think any kettlebell with a fairly thick handle & not too much cut away will do ('cut away' means some brands aren't round sided, but flat, I got a 12Kg like that, it didn't work for me anyway), a small flat area seems ok, but a big flat surface just doesn't work.
If you have some experience training I'd say a DVD & a 'bell would be enough to get you going. There aren't any KB teachers around here, so I've been forced to use that, but getting enter KB book & DVD & a 12 or 16KG (depending on your strength) if you are a male or 8 to 12Kg if you are a women is a reasonable starting point. Watch the DVD then go outside & start swinging. I would start with a swing, learn the 'hip pop' (that is driving the weight with the power of the hip, not the shoulder/arms), then I'd learn a clean (take 2 hands put the weight in the 'rack' position, first learn to lower the bell fro the rack to between your legs, once you have that cleaning is easy), from there the press, once you have the press the snatch is easy (you will learn to snatch more than you can press but at first learn the press first), from there you can include the windmill, then the Turkish get-up etc etc. That's how I'm doing it anyway - bear in mind I'm no expert with kettlebells, maybe an expert would do thinks differently, but I've found it a great way to develop power (power can be most easily described as strength with speed - just think of strength being something like powerlifting, so you grind out a huge deadlift lifting slowly, power is more like Olympic weightlifting where you most the weight at super speed-kettlebells are more akin to weightlifting than powerlifting).

Yea push-ups on any unstable surface can be quite challenging. I've got some adjustable gymnastic rings I have used for stuff like push-ups on occasion, that's hard! You need to keep an eye on your form though as one of the main benefits of a push-up is learning to keep that core tight, by sagging in the middle an unstable lift becomes easier, so you have to be especially careful that the core is tight & the body is straight (hunching up, or lifting the butt is also another common cheat). You'll have to let us know how you get on?
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:11 am

I was watching the DVDs this weekend.

If one of the DVDs describes a "Kettlebell clean and press"

In this illustration below from about.com a small weight is being used. But with the more weightier ones seems to put a bit of weight and pressure on the forearm more to the point the bone. Really. On the other hand, watching the DVD also made me think, lighter KBs aren't that bad, more reps.

It often seems when one reads the Dragon Door forum maybe people are trying to impress others, but they will often say really big weighted KBs, maybe 20 kg. Even 16 kg seems like it'd start to be putting a lot of pressure on the forearm bone. But then maybe I'm unique in this.
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:19 pm

If you look at that form on that picture it wouldn't be good form for a man. That isn't being offensive to women, but guys are built to use kettlebells & women find it more tricky. When you rack the bell at the chest, if you are a guy, then you have it more across the chest (you also keep the wrist straight, she has it bent back a bit). Women have to compromise as they have breasts & if you lift like a man it can injure the breasts in the rack position. For a guy the picture shows the bell way too out to the side, a guy has it much nearer the mid-line, in front of the chest.
I honest believe the weight lifted is irrelevant, You have to put your ego aside when it comes to lifting (ok we've all done ego things now & again, but it's not the best way to train). Getting good at the exercises & perfecting the moves should be the goal. When you've perfected the move then you should think about going up (this can be in weight, in reps, or shortening the rest period between sets). I'll be totally honest here (& this is something that is not often talked about) when you go up often the form gets a bit dodgy. You're doing a heavier weight, you might heave a little bit or use a bit of compensation (say on the clean & press you might push-press the bell up at first). This is natural & the idea is again work towards perfect form & once you reach your rep range in perfect form, then you can go up again. This is how most people progress. It's often not moving from a perfect form rep to a heavier perfect form rep, it can often be moving from a perfect form rep, the a slightly dodgy heavier rep, to a perfect form heavier rep, then you go up again....etc... To reach new levels can take some motor learning & real hard work, but to get to new heights you have to challenge yourself a bit & things might not look that pretty when you hit a new top weight for the first time..but it will get there if you work on getting & keeping the form perfect.

About the forearm issue. I think either there is a form issue or you've got pretty sensitive forearms. Yes, if the bell lands heavily it can cause pain & bruising, but if just the weight resting on your arm causes pain then either you're holding it wrongly or have pretty delicate forearms. Try this. Assuming you have larger bells try curling it with the help of both hands to the rack position & rest it on there, then just go for a walk with the bell. It should be a little challenging to hold it there for time, but it shouldn't be painful on the forearms. For a female this will be more challenging as you'd have to hold it more to the side, for a male you can hold it in towards the mid-line & it should be easier & more comfortable. Focus on a straight wrist & keeping it tight. Do about the same time with each arm. If it doesn't hurt the forearm being balanced like that, then you are probably having technique issues & maybe landing the bell too heavy (to be honest I'm still working on perfecting the 'punch through' to get the bell landing lightly every time as well!).

Finally forget the weights other people are saying...except if you want to use those as goals to aim at, then they can be useful to motivate you! But do aim at progression. If you can do say 10 reps with a 12kg bell today I would like you to think about being able to do 12 reps over the next few weeks, then 15 reps a few weeks after that etc. Obviously once you've gone up so far you don't want to spend hours doing reps, so it might be time to go up to the next heavier bell. If you do the same weight for the same reps every week you won't improve & so never fore fill your potential for maximum strength. Have a plan & pick a goal these will motivate you to improve & get stronger & better.
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Sun May 09, 2010 8:33 pm

A woman's book on kettlebells so keep that in mind, "bodysculpting with KBs" urges her readers to wear wrist sweat bands, I don't know if that would do a lot.

But I bring up this subject because apparently this problem has gone around some:

Keep in mind, at 24 kgs, this is a heavy kb this gentleman used: posting in full: Edit on: Logan's review concerns the 'Enter the Kettlebell' book by Pavel, it is NOT about the woman's book and I wanted to clarify that.

"I bought this book and a number of others by the same author. Followed the advice and had a lot of fun training for 9 months with a 24kg kettlebell. Worked up to sets of 6 cleans and presses each arm, and sets of 8 snatches each arm. I had no warnings of bad form such as those listed in the dreadfully inadequate warnings in this book, such as forearm pain or bruising. All seemed fine, other people who saw me train thought so too and they ordered, or were about to order, their own kettlebells. Then I went into my garden on 4 April 2009 to do a set of snatches like I had been doing weekly by then for several months with no problem. First rep was fine, second rep broke my left forearm so badly I was in hospital for 2 days, had to have surgery and a steel plate put in my left forearm which is still there now. When I reported the injury, Tsatsouline's only reply was "I have never heard of such an injury". So, the fellow isn't too well-informed about his own area of "expertise". He isn't too interested in anyone finding out an injury like this is possible either; he had the post I made on his forum, to warn others, deleted (but not before 5000 clicks had been made on the thread.) Anyone wanting to know more detail of my injury, Google "broken arm kettlebell snatch". "

http://www.amazon.com/Kettlebell-Strength-Secret-Soviet-Supermen/product-reviews/0938045695/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar

This isn't really going to effect me, since I wrote about how my forearm would sometimes feel sensitive, I've just put it out of my mind and it has not bothered me since. A real tangent but thought I'd add this on.


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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Mon May 10, 2010 3:57 am

I have never heard of this either - I use a 28 for snatching & cleaning at times (still not got the 32 up there quite yet). I'm working on refining my technique right now to avoid the banging of the forearm. The guy you want to watch is Steve Cotter, check this out:



This should sort out your snatching issues once you perfect it.

I'd suggest the guy had bone issues to break a bone by tapping it with a 24Kg - especially as he 'worked up to 6-8 reps' - I mean I'm working up to dozens, with the goal of 100 in under 5 minutes at that weight. Think about it, he claims to have perfect form, but can hit a bone so hard he causes it to shatter! Does that sound like 'perfect form' - check the video above again, there should be ZERO banging. I've really whacked my arm learning form, but never approach a break - I do come from a lifting background, so I might have dense bones, but even so I've had girls with arms as thin as crayons snatching smaller bells. Snatching is steep learning curve, but I suggest, it was a combination of terrible technique & bone issues that caused this injury. I'd probably suggest the person get their vitamin D tested (they come from Scotland, not so much sun there), & insure their diet was adequate (maybe some mineral supplements as well).
Ballistic training isn't dangerous by itself. Olympic lifters can lift right up into old age often & have stronger, more healthy joints than people their age on average. It's poor technique & poor weight choices that cause issues. Going for a 24Kg when you only have the strength for a 12Kg could result in injury. That's my take on this story. I think there are other issues at play other than what is being said here.

[As a side note Steve Cotter is the guy who does some crazy pistols as well!]

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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Mon May 10, 2010 10:53 am

A few quick notes:

The "bodysculpt with KB" probably has a valid criticism in using some real "baby weights" in the picture as one reviewer wrote but I think she's teaching women, a Turkish Get Up is a bear with a heavy weight, really is, works the whole body. For basic swings of course, she advises heavier weights can be used if the reader feels comfortable with it.

--------

As for Logan's crusade about breaking his arm per using Kettlebells , for everyone's exercise ideas, like music, it often has its detractors. Now, that I found Logan writing at an "Isometric" (weightless) exercise forum almost makes me wonder about the actual event in question, that seems suspicious to me because this same "Isometric" forum, all I will say, I can be messaged for the real name seems to preach "weight lifting can be dangerous"...

I'll just say, for something like "Perfect Pushups", there are quite a number of people talking about some "weird sensations" using these. This alleged KB accident seems to be somewhat unique and isolated, you can tell me one knocked a hole in the floor, that's believable with I'm sure a number of examples.

Hatchet jobs often go on I think with diets, exercises, etc. and one can not be certain of what they are reading about.

Odds are a kettlebell could cause an injury with all the people using them, I'd be more worried about dropping one on a barefoot though.

------------------

Just a few loose notes here:

The only time I have ever had any thing close to a mishap in lifting was in doing some lunges, I was carrying a bit too much with dumb bells in each hand and it did feel like one of my knees was saying "That's too much" and I felt condensed a little too much on the cushioning between the knee bones, one can find that too in bike climbing some steep mountains.

Some mountain hills have their degrees of how difficult a climb it is, we have one short climb that is a 30% grade . I don't know when too steep becomes a factor and not talking about low geared mountain bikes and off road riding, but 30% is an extremely steep amount. I've been told most of the mountain climbs you will see in the tour de France are 10%, even 15%, air at altitude might become a factor but that degree of climbing becomes easy compared to a 30% climb. That one hill would even be a bit tough to do sprints on but that's an idea.

Years ago, I once rode a bike in a park and on a short hill, I had to get off my bike and walk it up and then a girl about 8 years old came up beside me and just pedalled up and away from me, embarrassing. Embarassed

------------

Yes, I've watched the Steve Cotter videos which are awesome. Some time I hope to read his book. He seems to be an ideal instructor.
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Mon May 10, 2010 11:14 am

If one holds KBs or even Dumb bells in this manner, what muscles is one working the most?? Tris and the back??

That gal actually is doing pretty well with these, maybe it'd be harder with arms locked which I've done as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Mon May 10, 2010 12:03 pm

PhysCultureFan said:
Quote :
what muscles is one working the most?? Tris and the back??

Delts (shoulders) would be the prime mover (or if it's held, prime holder I suppose), traps would play a part as would the muscles surrounding the scapulae (many of the muscles around the shoulder blade). You'd also get some core stability work. It would be harder with straighter arms, but quite a few people can irritate their elbows if they lock them out like that, so I usually suggest a slight bend like the one shown.

You can go back a century & find detractors to exercise choices. Charles Atlas was accused of using weights, not bodyweight stuff to build his body (this does actually seem likely as quite a few people claim to have witnessed his use of weights), Sandow suggested only using light weights in his system which was criticised by other authors as being a marketing tool & not how Sandow himself trained; most lifters were said to get stiff & 'muscle bound' (a thing that medically doesn't actually exist), that lifting weights would weaken the heart, slow you down, stunt your growth etc.
Anyone who develops a system has to defend it, so you had Arthur Jones saying Olympic style lifting was stupid & only his machines gave you maximum results, you have the HIT-jedi saying anyone who does more than one set is a fool, super-slow using saying SS is the only way, others saying kettlebells being THE answer, etc etc. Personally I think loads of methods have merit. I've seen results from people doing SS through to Olympic lifts, high volume to low, bodyweight to powerlifting. They've all made great gains if they've done systematic training & diet techniques. Maybe there is a best way to train for a particular sport, like bodyweight probably won't get you onstage for the Olympia bodybuilding contest, but then a bodybuilding routine probably won't get you ready for soccer. If you're a mountain climber you'd need different training again & a gymnast needs something very specialised & probably a lot more bodyweight stuff to get results. So, keep in mind the goal when designing training routines & always listen to detractors but first ask if they might have an agenda, then secondly ask what they are trying to achieve - for example say a westside powerlifter would say bodyweight is not the best way as they are after that massive lift, but for someone else it might just be the right way.
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Wed May 12, 2010 5:54 pm

Pete wrote:
I have never heard of this either - I use a 28 for snatching & cleaning at times (still not got the 32 up there quite yet). I'm working on refining my technique right now to avoid the banging of the forearm. The guy you want to watch is Steve Cotter, check this out:



This should sort out your snatching issues once you perfect it.

I'd suggest the guy had bone issues to break a bone by tapping it with a 24Kg - especially as he 'worked up to 6-8 reps' - I mean I'm working up to dozens, with the goal of 100 in under 5 minutes at that weight. Think about it, he claims to have perfect form, but can hit a bone so hard he causes it to shatter! Does that sound like 'perfect form' - check the video above again, there should be ZERO banging. I've really whacked my arm learning form, but never approach a break - I do come from a lifting background, so I might have dense bones, but even so I've had girls with arms as thin as crayons snatching smaller bells. Snatching is steep learning curve, but I suggest, it was a combination of terrible technique & bone issues that caused this injury. I'd probably suggest the person get their vitamin D tested (they come from Scotland, not so much sun there), & insure their diet was adequate (maybe some mineral supplements as well).
Ballistic training isn't dangerous by itself. Olympic lifters can lift right up into old age often & have stronger, more healthy joints than people their age on average. It's poor technique & poor weight choices that cause issues. Going for a 24Kg when you only have the strength for a 12Kg could result in injury. That's my take on this story. I think there are other issues at play other than what is being said here.

[As a side note Steve Cotter is the guy who does some crazy pistols as well!]


Thanks Pete, those are good videos, sometimes I have to watch videos on a better computer so just watched them but I have seen this Cotter fellow before in videos and he does explain it well.

Those pistols, interesting, another thing to strive for.
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Wed May 12, 2010 7:18 pm

People should know, there are actually handles to convert conventional weights to Kettlebells. That is just one style and I almost wonder if there could be a way to d-i-y, do it yourself but it's not an issue to me. To me, they don't look like they would have the same feel or effect but actually I don't know how functional handles are.

Bruce Lee by the way, used handles attached to dumb bells.

http://www.jkdsweden.com/index.php/stil_info/ted_wong/the_power_of_the_dragon

Fairly good article here coming out of Sweden, tells about some other ways he trained.

For the record, it looks like there is information going both ways as to whether he was a vegetarian/vegan or not. I think it tends to lean towards his not being one.
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Thu May 13, 2010 4:52 am

You can't clean or snatch with those handles, in this case you could well break a forearm as if you had a form failure you would have an edge, not a round surface impacting on your forearm. I actually have a pair of these (well a slightly different design, but basically the same). OK for swings or if you want to throw weights, maybe even a get-up, but no good for ballistic stuff that involves them landing on the forearm.

'Kettlebell handles' on dumbbells are a very old idea, you could buy them all over the place in the early 20th century, but they really served little value that I can see (I could be wrong mind you?)....Just had a look they sell similar today at Atomic Athlete





(note: It looks like they need a bigger bit of plastic or similar in the middle as the wrist appears to be bent slightly backwards in this picture - although I'd have to see if it was just him, a design fault or just how it appears in the picture as the angle is a little tricky to be 100% sure)
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Fri May 14, 2010 11:25 am

Steve Cotter on those pistols, just watching the guy, it is apparent his legs are really highly developed. Yes, he has definition but the top doesn't seem as bodybuilder like, I hope again, I'm not speaking under most people's here knowledge on kettlebelling, but as opposed to Pavel, I watched youtube videos of one instructor out of Maryland, the guy actually looks a bit like Zidane but his limbs did not appear heavily developed, top or bottom, but of course, I've heard people can develop muscles differently. Cotter's legs are so built that it almost makes him look a bit bottom heavy including the glutes, all... pear shaped Laughing ... no I am only kidding.

I've no plans to get these DVDs "encyclopedias" both for body weight training and kettlebelling but if someone has seen them, it'd be interesting to hear feedback. 8 hours of kettlebelling, wow.

Again, no reason to be a hotdog either, Cotter is professional, but someone could get hurt, him too, doing some of these things like the pistol. I can probably do it a few times a foot high but he is doing this about, what? 2 and a half, 3 feet high.

Maybe some time, I might consider the dvds because the cost is not prohibitive and a used one might be found somewhere too.

http://www.davedraper.com/blog/2008/04/24/steve-cotter-bodyweight-exercises/

I like his throwing the KB up in the 2nd video and then catching it oh and the Russian anthem, nice touch.

---------------


I'm not into Club Bells so much, heavy ones or Sonnen but this is a good video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFsQeDFbptc <---- For the record, these might be better called Persian Clubs or Club Bells, a bit of semantics. Nice video.

I have some light weight Indian clubs which are good for a lot of lateral exercise I do when just a little bit of exercise is called for. That should be the next thing on my list would be to get some, next size up, they are relaxing to cut through the air with actually and can do mostly inside except cut real big arcs... best to just try to get by with what I have... probably more than enough, at least for a few months, KBs and the Clubs are a lot of exercise potential besides a few other things I have.. I do have one heavy club... haven't weighed it, I'd guess about 20-25 lbs. pounds, ? Kgs, is that about 40 kgs <---- from products per home base, pipe and screwing it together, I've heard one person, in fact the "Old Time Strong Man" web site say NOT to make one's own Indian clubs (they'd also have you buy their clubs which with all due respect to everyone, you'd pay a bit more than if you just got it off of amazon or some other places), so I'm kind of undecided but I have never really used it much...and would do so basically in an open field, I can't find the web site now, but there is some other "club" site, "man's oldest weapon", I believe it bills itself about...can't find it now...no big deal to me, I'm not into Martial Arts or much of anything in that area but it probably fits the bill for a lot of people, self confidence things and the like.


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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Fri May 14, 2010 7:50 pm

Just a note, with this Russian and in fact, Persian references made, the "Bodysculpting with KBs for women" by Lorna Kleidman has this note:

Too much to type at this late hour, but some how, these balls may have been used in old church bells... a bit of an involved explanation but then...

Quote :
"Similarly, Scottish legend has it that would-be strongmen and athletes utilized old or leaky cast iron cooking kettles as rudimentary weights. Back in the day, nothing was wasted! By filling the kettles with sand, soil, or lead shot, they became load-adjustable strength-training tools which could be lifted, pulled or swung about. In time, the name 'kettle-bell' was termed. - page 4.

And then she writes:

Quote :
"Although now we know the modern versions of dumbbells and kettlebells, in fact weights with handles have been around for millennia, going back to ancient Greek and Roman times."

Okay, whatever, but you all might appreciate she gives credit where it is due.
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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Sat May 15, 2010 3:17 am

I've got both those Steve Cotter 'encyclopedia' DVD sets you talk about (I try to buy at least 1 DVD &/or 1 Book about training per month). They cover form & exercises pretty well, although I'm not fond of the Girevoy style (that the Russians use as a sport & which is also demonstrated), seems like you're pretty loose & could develop issues as you age (he demonstrates both 'standard' technique & has a Russian Champ demonstrating Girevoy style).
I believe Steve Cotter played American football & lifted weights before finding kettlebells hence he has more muscle than the average kettlebell user (as kettlebels are mainly used as strength/endurance style training tools).

----

The clubbell swinging Youtube clip was good. I have got 'The Physical Body - Indian wrestling & physical culture' which goes into traditional clubbell & mace usage in the last of the old time wrestling schools over there.



25pounds is 11.5Kg approx by the way you're going the wrong way 2.2 pounds is 1 Kg is the usual calculation

In Indian they make their own clubs & in the middle east. I wouldn't worry. I've used light (5Kg each approx) things called 'talons' as clubbells (something like these, but for 1" standard plates - they are used to make a shrug bar fit in a power rack). I use them for a circular motion rather like the Indian wrestlers use them. Pretty good for the shoulders. You can even make your own small maces or clubbells really quick by getting a piece of 1" thick pipe, say 20" or more), 2 strong collars for a barbell & some small standard discs. Just fix the discs to one end with the collars & there you go, instant mace - you can also load it up & do heavy vertical bar lifts etc (see below for a V-bar lift)

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PostSubject: Re: Kettlebells?   Sat May 15, 2010 3:39 pm

I don't mean for this to be the Kettlebell Corner:

"Dr. Courtney Mizuhara-Cheng, at 102 pounds, swinging The Beast, a 106-pound kettlebell at the Russian Kettlebell Challenge in April 2007."



http://www.kettlebellslosangeles.com/mizuhara-cheng.html

You have probably seen her before, that's rather impressive, not readily logical.

--------------

I think I have a handle on how to lift it now, the video was very good.

------------

I try to stay loose, put on some early Stones and I mean the real early stuff, Rory Gallagher, and swing those clubs, .. I realize (realise) I get followed some, I can read it, I'd go back to New Mexico in a flash or close to it, get some order, my true home from where I am, hasn't worked out, looking for a fair shake, but so it goes.

The guys want me to play soccer, I have put on hopefully healthy weight over the winter but playing indoor, banged the ball of my foot, I think that was from having a few extra pounds and maybe shoes too tight, so I've got into a different routine so we will see.

The Grateful Dead have that one song, sometimes I can get into them in the right mood, "Uncle John's band" and the line goes "are you kind?" and heck, if you are a Vegan, full respect, one must be. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgqsP9BICNE Hippy harmonies.
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